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kepalawortel - 13/09/2012 05:07 PM
#1281

Quote:
Original Posted By Rancuu
Amatiran mo tanya lg ni.
1. Yg di bold ada RSV 5:8, kenapa di KJV ada di ayat 5:7? kenapa ada ayat yg dibuang/ditambah?
2. Antara ayat yang di bold, mana yg asli? Jika Ayat Injil tersebut diterjemahkan dari naskah kuno seharusnya menggunakan kata yang sama. Kenapa ini bisa beda? Jadi ayat yg asli yg mana?


halo, newbie bantu menjelaskan pertanyaan
Quote:

TUDUHAN :
Alkitab direvisi :

1 Yohanes
Alkitab Terjemahan Baru
5:7 Sebab ada tiga yang memberi kesaksian (di dalam sorga: Bapa, Firman dan Roh Kudus; dan ketiganya adalah satu.

Alkitab Kabar Baik
5:7 Ada tiga saksi:


TANYA :

Bisa jelaskan mengenai perbedaan itu?



benar begitu? pertanyaan yang mau kamu ajukan? -+nya?

kalau ya saya jawab,kalau bukan , tunggu yang lain


sepertinya saya mau menghilang dulu masbro,ada kesibukan
ruvo - 13/09/2012 05:33 PM
#1282

Quote:
Original Posted By kepalawortel
boleh ane bantu jawab ga bro?
sepertinya di luar pembahasan agama nih pertanyaanya D

http://www.kaskus.co.id/showpost.php?p=748251395&postcount=863


step by step \)
[HOLY] Anda Bertanya, Kristen Menjawab - Part  33

[HOLY] Anda Bertanya, Kristen Menjawab - Part  33

tinggal ambil URLnya

[CODE]http://www.kaskus.co.id/showpost.php?p=748251395&postcount=863[/CODE]

wow.. trimakasih bro.. udah posting sampe ratusan.. baru ngerti skarang..
sayang saya belum iso jadi gk bisa kasih cendol.. o
BEdZAT - 13/09/2012 05:37 PM
#1283

Quote:
Original Posted By Rancuu
Amatiran mo tanya lg ni.
1. Yg di bold ada RSV 5:8, kenapa di KJV ada di ayat 5:7? kenapa ada ayat yg dibuang/ditambah?
2. Antara ayat yang di bold, mana yg asli? Jika Ayat Injil tersebut diterjemahkan dari naskah kuno seharusnya menggunakan kata yang sama. Kenapa ini bisa beda? Jadi ayat yg asli yg mana?

silahkan gan.
http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV u{dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a{gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e{n eijsi. 5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence.1

This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum) made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared (1516), there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520),3 Erasmus apparently felt obliged to include the reading. He became aware of this manuscript sometime between May of 1520 and September of 1521. In his annotations to his third edition he does not protest the rendering now in his text,4 as though it were made to order; but he does defend himself from the charge of indolence, noting that he had taken care to find whatever manuscripts he could for the production of his Greek New Testament. In the final analysis, Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns: he did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold.

Modern advocates of the Textus Receptus and KJV generally argue for the inclusion of the Comma Johanneum on the basis of heretical motivation by scribes who did not include it. But these same scribes elsewhere include thoroughly orthodox readings—even in places where the TR/Byzantine manuscripts lack them. Further, these KJV advocates argue theologically from the position of divine preservation: since this verse is in the TR, it must be original. But this approach is circular, presupposing as it does that the TR = the original text. Further, it puts these Protestant proponents in the awkward and self-contradictory position of having to affirm that the Roman Catholic humanist, Erasmus, was just as inspired as the apostles, for on several occasions he invented readings—due either to carelessness or lack of Greek manuscripts (in particular, for the last six verses of Revelation Erasmus had to back-translate from Latin to Greek).

In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum must go back to the original text when it did not appear until the 16th century in any Greek manuscripts? Such a stance does not do justice to the gospel: faith must be rooted in history. To argue that the Comma must be authentic is Bultmannian in its method, for it ignores history at every level. As such, it has very little to do with biblical Christianity, for a biblical faith is one that is rooted in history.

Significantly, the German translation done by Luther was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’ third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground for English-speaking Christians more than for others.

Unfortunately, for many, the Comma and other similar passages have become such emotional baggage that is dragged around whenever the Bible is read that a knee-jerk reaction and ad hominem argumentation becomes the first and only way that they can process this issue. Sadly, neither empirical evidence nor reason can dissuade them from their views. The irony is that their very clinging to tradition at all costs (namely, of an outmoded translation which, though a literary monument in its day, is now like a Model T on the Autobahn) emulates Roman Catholicism in its regard for tradition.5 If the King James translators knew that this would be the result nearly four hundred years after the completion of their work, they’d be writhing in their graves.

1 For a detailed discussion, see Metzger, Textual Commentary, 2nd ed., 647-49.

2 Not only the ancient orthodox writers, but also modern orthodox scholars would of course be delighted if this reading were the original one. But the fact is that the evidence simply does not support the Trinitarian formula here—and these orthodox scholars just happen to hold to the reasonable position that it is essential to affirm what the Bible affirms where it affirms it, rather than create such affirmations ex nihilo. That KJV advocates have charged modern translations with heresy because they lack the Comma is a house of cards, for the same translators who have worked on the NIV, NASB, or NET (as well as many other translations) have written several articles and books affirming the Trinity.

3 This manuscript which contains the entire New Testament is now housed in Dublin. It has been examined so often at this one place that the book now reportedly falls open naturally to 1 John 5.

4 That Erasmus made such a protest or that he had explicitly promised to include the Comma is an overstatement of the evidence, though the converse of this can be said to be true: Erasmus refused to put this in his without Greek manuscript support.

5 Thus, TR-KJV advocates subconsciously embrace two diametrically opposed traditions: when it comes to the first 1500 years of church history, they hold to a Bultmannian kind of Christianity (viz., the basis for their belief in the superiority of the Byzantine manuscripts—and in particular, the half dozen that stand behind the TR—has very little empirical substance of historical worth). Once such readings became a part of tradition, however, by way of the TR, the argument shifts to one of tradition rather than non-empirical fideism. Neither basis, of course, resembles Protestantism.
ruvo - 13/09/2012 05:54 PM
#1284

Quote:
Original Posted By Rancuu
Amatiran mo tanya lg ni.
1. Yg di bold ada RSV 5:8, kenapa di KJV ada di ayat 5:7? kenapa ada ayat yg dibuang/ditambah?
2. Antara ayat yang di bold, mana yg asli? Jika Ayat Injil tersebut diterjemahkan dari naskah kuno seharusnya menggunakan kata yang sama. Kenapa ini bisa beda? Jadi ayat yg asli yg mana?


kalau saya babar disini over posting gan..
Coba anda baca di sini..
di situ anda bisa menemukan berbagai tuduhan beserta jawabannya.. anda juga bisa tahu bagaimana sebenarnya proses pencatan Injil dilakukan..
untuk jawaban Anda saya hanya menjawab kedua versi tersebut menggunakan codex berbeda..
untuk akurasi dan pembuktian pencatatan Alkitab anda bisa baca di sini
RangonJaya - 13/09/2012 05:59 PM
#1285

Quote:
Original Posted By dib058
lha emang anda tidak dapat mencerna tulisan unwell dengan baik..?

lha wong itu logo Jagermeister, suatu produk minuman keras dari Jerman..

arti logonya..?

Jagermeister artinya hunt master, ahli pemburu jager = pemburu meister = master..

arti logonya berkaitan dengan cerita St. Hubertus dan St. Eustace, santo pelindung para pemburu..

referensi neeh :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4germeister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Hubertus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Eustace
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Jagermeister_logo

enggak ngambek lagi tooh..?


Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
memahami?

bagus bila memang niatnya serius.

kira2x menurut tafsir agan sebelumnya,dengan membawa pic tadi apa?

nanti kita babar bersama.shakehand


Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
maksudnya secara agama?

apakah agan berpikir,yang membuat minuman beralkohol diatas adalah gereja?


nah gt dong. adan pertanyaan ane disini. apakah ada secara rinci dalam alkitab ketentuan lambang salib itu. jadi bisa membedakan itu simbol agama atau bukan. misal huruf T dalam font tertentu kan t
BEdZAT - 13/09/2012 06:16 PM
#1286

[QUOTE=RangonJaya;748307598]nah gt dong. adan pertanyaan ane disini. apakah ada secara rinci dalam alkitab ketentuan lambang salib itu. jadi bisa membedakan itu simbol agama atau bukan. misal huruf T dalam font tertentu kan t
pacikun - 13/09/2012 06:17 PM
#1287

[QUOTE=RangonJaya;748307598]nah gt dong. adan pertanyaan ane disini. apakah ada secara rinci dalam alkitab ketentuan lambang salib itu. jadi bisa membedakan itu simbol agama atau bukan. misal huruf T dalam font tertentu kan t
DCenthut - 13/09/2012 06:30 PM
#1288

Quote:
Original Posted By pacikun


apapun bentuknya ga pernah dimasalahin koq, tapi maknanya

garis vertical menunjukan hubungan kita dengan Allah

garis horisontal menunjukan hubungan kita dengan sesama manusia \)

dan semuanya harus kita jaga dengan baik, jadi walaupun ada orang yang menyinggung iman kami ga sampe kita keroyok macem binatang D


keren gan, ane baru nyadar
makna salib..
jadi hubungan kita sama Tuhan harus leih donk
dibanding sama sesama manusia
secara yang vertikal lebih panjang
drpda yg horizontaL...
tapi pada kenyataannya sulit yah..
berdoa 15 menit aja udah berasa lama bgt...
GBU
pacikun - 13/09/2012 06:34 PM
#1289

Quote:
Original Posted By DCenthut
keren gan, ane baru nyadar
makna salib..
jadi hubungan kita sama Tuhan harus leih donk
dibanding sama sesama manusia
secara yang vertikal lebih panjang
drpda yg horizontaL...
tapi pada kenyataannya sulit yah..
berdoa 15 menit aja udah berasa lama bgt...
GBU


yup, bener gan jangankan 15 menit... kadang kalo buru" kita pasti sering lupa yang namanya berdoa D

makanya kewajiban shalat umat sebelah gw salut koq D

di luar kepada "siapa" mereka berdoa D


Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
tidak ada ketentuan dalam alkitab tentang lambang salib.

umatnya memakai lambang salib untuk mengingat penderitaan Yesus atas dosa2 umat manusia di kayu salib.shakehand


+ ini bagaimana besarnya Kasih Allah untuk memperdamaikan Allah dengan manusia lewat Yesus :angel
Rancuu - 13/09/2012 06:42 PM
#1290

Quote:
Original Posted By kepalawortel
halo, newbie bantu menjelaskan pertanyaan



benar begitu? pertanyaan yang mau kamu ajukan? -+nya?

kalau ya saya jawab,kalau bukan , tunggu yang lain


sepertinya saya mau menghilang dulu masbro,ada kesibukan


Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
silahkan gan.
http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8


Quote:
Original Posted By ruvo
kalau saya babar disini over posting gan..
Coba anda baca di sini..
di situ anda bisa menemukan berbagai tuduhan beserta jawabannya.. anda juga bisa tahu bagaimana sebenarnya proses pencatan Injil dilakukan..
untuk jawaban Anda saya hanya menjawab kedua versi tersebut menggunakan codex berbeda..
untuk akurasi dan pembuktian pencatatan Alkitab anda bisa baca di sini


1. Jadi yg bener yg mana ni? 1 John 5 ayat 6 & 7 harusnya dipisah atau sambung?

2. Jadi antara 1 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. danThere are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree yg bener yg mana? Yg sesuai dengan Naskah kuno yg mana?
ruvo - 13/09/2012 07:08 PM
#1291

Quote:
Original Posted By Rancuu
1. Jadi yg bener yg mana ni? 1 John 5 ayat 6 & 7 harusnya dipisah atau sambung?

2. Jadi antara 1 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. danThere are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree yg bener yg mana? Yg sesuai dengan Naskah kuno yg mana?

belum dibaca ya.. linknya gan..? kok masih tanya..?o
yang ini gan.. 1 Yoh 5:5-8 (KJV)
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

versi RSV menggunakan codex yg belum lengkap.. karena umur dari fragment yg ditemukan sudah tua.. sehingga banyak teks ayat yg hilang..
RangonJaya - 13/09/2012 07:13 PM
#1292

Quote:
Original Posted By pacikun
apapun bentuknya ga pernah dimasalahin koq, tapi maknanya

garis vertical menunjukan hubungan kita dengan Allah

garis horisontal menunjukan hubungan kita dengan sesama manusia \)

dan semuanya harus kita jaga dengan baik, jadi walaupun ada orang yang menyinggung iman kami ga sampe kita keroyok macem binatang D


Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
tidak ada ketentuan dalam alkitab tentang lambang salib.

umatnya memakai lambang salib untuk mengingat penderitaan Yesus atas dosa2 umat manusia di kayu salib.shakehand

nah kaya bro ini kan enak ini namanya diskusi. tidak menggoblokan orang
kalau saya pintar ga bakal saya tanya disini
pacikun - 13/09/2012 07:33 PM
#1293

Quote:
Original Posted By RangonJaya
nah kaya bro ini kan enak ini namanya diskusi. tidak menggoblokan orang
kalau saya pintar ga bakal saya tanya disini


kadang kalau saya khilaf saya suka koq gan menggoblokan orang \(
Crucifixus - 13/09/2012 07:59 PM
#1294

lagi pada bahas apaan sih?tritunggal kah?
orker - 13/09/2012 08:05 PM
#1295

Quote:
Original Posted By RangonJaya



nah kaya bro ini kan enak ini namanya diskusi. tidak menggoblokan orang
kalau saya pintar ga bakal saya tanya disini


bagus lah bos kalo dah ngerti situ ga pintar, jadi ga tersinggung dong di bilang goblok...

no offense...
BEdZAT - 13/09/2012 09:06 PM
#1296

Haiiiiloveindonesias

mau tanya.

ada yang tahu tentang kristen unitarian?

di abkam,ada agan wrathog,posting rada2x aneh?Yb
dBaT - 13/09/2012 09:13 PM
#1297

Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
Haiiiiloveindonesias

mau tanya.

ada yang tahu tentang kristen unitarian?

di abkam,ada agan wrathog,posting rada2x aneh?Yb


kalau mau debat, memang bagusan debat ama wrathog.
soalnya debatnya ayat alkitab.
jadi bisa debeatin doktrin yg kita yakinin benar atau salah.

beda dengan debat ama umat muslim yg ke sini,
mereka ga pernah baca alkitab, jg ngak ngerti doktrin di salah satu aliran kristen,
jadinya ya, omongan mereka pada ga ada isinya.
mereka itu cuma dipake buat sundul sundul thread aza.
omjackD - 13/09/2012 09:20 PM
#1298

Quote:
Original Posted By BEdZAT
Haiiiiloveindonesias

mau tanya.

ada yang tahu tentang kristen unitarian?

di abkam,ada agan wrathog,posting rada2x aneh?Yb


Unitarian itu tidak percaya kalo Yesus itu Tuhan & Allah

warhog? warhog mana?

yang suka pura2 ngilang pas dah mati langkah itu bukan?
JAVAWAR - 13/09/2012 09:26 PM
#1299

Malem...
cuma sekedar baca2 doank...
Biasa..... Yb
JAVAWAR - 13/09/2012 09:27 PM
#1300

Quote:
Original Posted By omjackD
Unitarian itu tidak percaya kalo Yesus itu Tuhan & Allah

warhog? warhog mana?

yang suka pura2 ngilang pas dah mati langkah itu bukan?

Jaman jebot pake alasan kuliah dll...
Seingat gw seeeeh iloveindonesias
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Home > CASCISCUS > DEBATE CLUB > [HOLY] Anda Bertanya, Kristen Menjawab - Part 33