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Orthanc - 18/06/2010 02:56 PM
#61

Quote:
Original Posted By radenontop
nice thread.
by the way i dont understand about tenses. especially past continuous tense, past progressive tense, & past perfect continuous tense. in what kind of condition we could use this tenses ?
i already read the first page and still confused


continuous = progressive, they're the same.

past continuous tense dipakai untuk menjelaskan "apa yang sedang dilakukan" di masa lalu.

for example:

"pada waktu itu saya sedang memanjat pohon mangga di depan rumah"

"I was climbing the mango tree in front of my house at that time"

"was climbing" di sini adalah perwujudan dari past continuous-nya: to be (past) + V-ing. to be itu bisa am, is, are, was, were tergantung situasinya, karena ini past, maka pilihan to be-nya adalah was dan were.

kalau present continuous digunakan untuk menjelaskan apa yang sedang lu lakukan sekarang.

untuk past perfect continuous tense pernah saya jelaskan di thread sebelah, waktu itu ketika ada yang menanyakan apa bedanya past perfect tense dengan past perfect continuous tense, mungkin bisa disimak juga:

Quote:
Original Posted By Champs
Based on the question above, i would like to ask about something..
I understand about these sentences:
My phone rang while I was entering my blog. = ketika aku sedang mengisi
I entered his office and found him sleeping yesterday. = aku memasuki
I was entered in a football championship by my friend. = Aku didaftarkan
I have entering the stadium now = aku sudah memasuki

But, how about these two:
I had entering
I had entered
Could you please make some simple sentences and also the meaning please..
Thx..


Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
The correct form for "I had entering" you mention here is supposed to be "I had been entering".

"I had been entering" = past perfect continuous tense
"I had entered" = past perfect tense

their present tense counterparts are

I have been entering = present perfect continuous tense
I have entered = present perfect tense

According to certain versions of grammatical rule, sometimes present/past perfect continuous and present/past perfect are used interchangeably for sentences where there is a reference of period during which the action takes place.

I have waited for you since 2 o'clock
I have been waiting for you since 2 o'clock

However, AFAIK, present perfect, or past perfect, can also be used in sentences without any period reference:

I've done my homework

This is particularly because Present Perfect Continuous (PPC) emphasizes the "process", while Present Perfect (PP) focuses on the "result". Whenever someone uses PP, it is assumed that he/she is no longer doing the action.

However, in some cases like the sentences:

1. "Aragorn has lived in this fortress for two years"
2. "Aragorn has been living in this fortress for two years"

Although they both mean the same thing, there are certain differences we must note:

The first sentence does not instantly mean that Aragorn no longer lives in the fortress by the time he said that. It emphasizes Aragorn's "experience" of living inside the fortress. In this case, he may, or may not continue to live in the fortress afterwards.

The second sentence emphasizes Aragorn's "activity", that now he lives inside the fortress, whereas he may continue to do so afterwards.

The rules for PP and PPC may apply to Past Perfect and Past Perfect Continuous because these two are the "Past" versions of PP and PPC.

CMIIW.


Quote:
Original Posted By Champs
Wow... thx, I understand now. To sum up :
I assume from your statement that "have lived" and "have been living" have similar meaning with "had lived" and "had been living" if there is a reference of time when the action takes place.
I had / have been living here for 2 days (past perfect continues tense) : until now
I had / have living here for 2 days (past perfect tense) : may / may not until now.

@pinked books : That's why I change the word above D thx..


Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
I gave a bit of correction here for the second sentence: you used had/have living, while the correct one is had/have lived for past/present perfect.

You must also remember that past perfect and past perfect continuous tenses can only be used in reference of past actions. Hence, you use "then" instead of "now".

I had lived there for two years by then
I had been living here there for two years by then

For example:

"It all began in 1985 when I got my last job in Jakarta. I had lived in that city for eight years by then, and was looking for a chance to go abroad."

"Semua bermula tahun 1985 ketika saya mendapatkan pekerjaan terakhir saya di Jakarta. Saya sudah tinggal di kota tersebut selama dua tahun sampai saat itu dan sedang mencari kesempatan keluar negeri."

CMIIW.


sekali lagi, CMIIW.
nottoohandsome - 18/06/2010 04:39 PM
#62

Hey guys,
In the sentence below, please choose one answer that you think is the most correct tenses. And please give explanation..

______________ what he said is still related.

a. I thought
b. I was thinking
c. I have been thinking

The situation is, I do think so at that time he said it, and at this moment i still do. What i want to emphasize here is the process of thinking..

Thank you for your answer..
Orthanc - 18/06/2010 05:57 PM
#63

Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome
Hey guys,
In the sentence below, please choose one answer that you think is the most correct tenses. And please give explanation..

______________ what he said is still related.

a. I thought
b. I was thinking
c. I have been thinking

The situation is, I do think so at that time he said it, and at this moment i still do. What i want to emphasize here is the process of thinking..

Thank you for your answer..


It's C then. you can see my explanation above (the previous post before you) on the part about when to use past perfect and past perfect continuous (in one of the quoted spaces in my answers to Champs). Basically the rule for present perfect continuous is like this: "You did someting, and are still doing it until now"
nottoohandsome - 18/06/2010 08:31 PM
#64

Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
It's C then. you can see my explanation above (the previous post before you) on the part about when to use past perfect and past perfect continuous (in one of the quoted spaces in my answers to Champs). Basically the rule for present perfect continuous is like this: "You did someting, and are still doing it until now"


Most of the time, the basic idea of using C, as i understand, is to put emphasize on the duration of the action. That's why in most cases we have to put some words describing how long we do that, like "for several years", "since that time", etc.

While in that case, i don't wanna emphasize in the duration, because if i do,i'd rather rearrange the sentence as:
"Since the first time he said it, I've been thinking that what he said is still related."

What do u think?
Orthanc - 18/06/2010 08:56 PM
#65

Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome
Most of the time, the basic idea of using C, as i understand, is to put emphasize on the duration of the action. That's why in most cases we have to put some words describing how long we do that, like "for several years", "since that time", etc.

While in that case, i don't wanna emphasize in the duration, because if i do,i'd rather rearrange the sentence as:
"Since the first time he said it, I've been thinking that what he said is still related."

What do u think?


Then simply use the present perfect (PP) tense, because it may be used without any period reference. although PP emphasizes more on the "result" rather than the "process" as I've said as well in my explanation to champs

"I've thought that what he said is still related"

However, I admit that the sentence does not sound to well for my common understanding.

Perhaps you can even just say "I've always thought that what he said is still related"

"always" is not exactly a period reference although it stresses frequency/habit, and therefore may give an impression that an action has been done since the past.

If this doesn't satisfy you, may I know the Indonesian version of the sentence you're meaning to translate here? maybe I can offer a better sentence suggestion before we proceed on choosing the best tense itself \)
nottoohandsome - 18/06/2010 09:21 PM
#66

Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
Then simply use the present perfect (PP) tense, because it may be used without any period reference. although PP emphasizes more on the "result" rather than the "process" as I've said as well in my explanation to champs

"I've thought that what he said is still related"

However, I admit that the sentence does not sound to well for my common understanding.

Perhaps you can even just say "I've always thought that what he said is still related"

I don't even consider PP at all, coz it will mean that I've come to my final conclusion which in fact I haven't. Putting "always" will eventually make the meaning way too far from what I actually mean.

Quote:

If this doesn't satisfy you, may I know the Indonesian version of the sentence you're meaning to translate here? maybe I can offer a better sentence suggestion before we proceed on choosing the best tense itself \)

unfortunately i don't even think the sentence in Indonesian, and I don't know how it will sound in it since Indonesian don't have any tense at all.
But in French, I would use the imperfect tense, so it will sound: Je pensais que ......

But as I said the situation is: I'm in the process of thinking since he said it, while at this moment my current conclusion is "I think that it is related", which is not my final conclusion coz I may change it later..

My decision at that moment (the tense I chose) was "I was thinking".
I just wanna evaluate my sentences and ask myself why i chose that, and see if other people agree or not.

Thanks for replying Orthanc, if u wanna add something please do, the others are welcome also.
Orthanc - 18/06/2010 09:32 PM
#67

Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome
I don't even consider PP at all, coz it will mean that I've come to my final conclusion which in fact I haven't. Putting "always" will eventually make the meaning way too far from what I actually mean.


not really, I think, because not everything that uses PP is final in its predicament, it's only a matter of stopping at some point with an open ending later on. An example of this can be seen in my explanation using "aragorn living in a fortress" in one of the quotations above. This would be much better than having to sacrifice the grammatical rule of using of PPC with period reference, or using past continuous whilst you're still doing the action until now.

but if we admit to ourselves, "high-pitch" literature has more than often defied grammar and gotten away with it pretty easily, hence creating justifications for such. D in instances where English can be flexibly used with little errors, I've found people using present/past perfect continuous without period reference D
unitedforone07 - 18/06/2010 10:31 PM
#68

^^

Well , let me take some time to read all posts above ...... sometimes , I'd like to chime in and emphasize certain tense to make it more obvious ..
nottoohandsome - 18/06/2010 11:20 PM
#69

Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
but if we admit to ourselves, "high-pitch" literature has more than often defied grammar and gotten away with it pretty easily, hence creating justifications for such. D in instances where English can be flexibly used with little errors, I've found people using present/past perfect continuous without period reference D

yeah you're right, lot of cases do.. D
But in an academic-writing-environment like my case above, sometimes you have to make sure that your argument is correctly understood, so that you don't have to answer unnecessary questions because of misunderstanding..


Quote:
Original Posted By unitedforone07
^^

Well , let me take some time to read all posts above ...... sometimes , I'd like to chime in and emphasize certain tense to make it more obvious ..

yeah.. \) that's what i'm trying to do here..
vidavacia - 19/06/2010 12:22 AM
#70

Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome
Hey guys,
In the sentence below, please choose one answer that you think is the most correct tenses. And please give explanation..

______________ what he said is still related.

a. I thought
b. I was thinking
c. I have been thinking

The situation is, I do think so at that time he said it, and at this moment i still do. What i want to emphasize here is the process of thinking..

Thank you for your answer..


honestly, i'm not sure i understand your question. let me make myself clear: you thought what he said was related, and you still think so now?

if you say:
1. I thought what he said is still related, this means you've changed your mind.
2. I was thinking what he said is still related, this means you just talk about the background/setting, not the main event. and when you say "i was thinking", it's not related to the present time.
3. I have been thinking what he said is still related, this means that you're still in the process of thinking, and not yet come to a conclusion.

and no, you don't always have to include a duration in PPC.
"i've been thinking about you" is a valid sentence. people would understand that there's a duration in that activity, even though you don't say "for days" or "since last week", for example.


Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome
I don't even consider PP at all, coz it will mean that I've come to my final conclusion which in fact I haven't. Putting "always" will eventually make the meaning way too far from what I actually mean.


unfortunately i don't even think the sentence in Indonesian, and I don't know how it will sound in it since Indonesian don't have any tense at all.
But in French, I would use the imperfect tense, so it will sound: Je pensais que ......

But as I said the situation is: I'm in the process of thinking since he said it, while at this moment my current conclusion is "I think that it is related", which is not my final conclusion coz I may change it later..

My decision at that moment (the tense I chose) was "I was thinking".
I just wanna evaluate my sentences and ask myself why i chose that, and see if other people agree or not.

Thanks for replying Orthanc, if u wanna add something please do, the others are welcome also.


imparfait in french is more or less like past continuous tense. it doesn't have any connection to the present.
example: quand j'etais étudiante,.. (when i was a student,..)
as you can see, the above example is only half of the sentence. so if you want to say: I was thinking that what he said is related,..
there has to be another clause (usually in past simple) to make the sentence complete.

simpler example:
i was just thinking about the answer, when someone called me.

cmiiw.
Orthanc - 19/06/2010 01:14 AM
#71

Quote:
Original Posted By vidavacia

and no, you don't always have to include a duration in PPC.
"i've been thinking about you" is a valid sentence. people would understand that there's a duration in that activity, even though you don't say "for days" or "since last week", for example.


IMO, the purpose of using a duration/period reference in a PPC is none other than to define the process emphasized in the sentence itself and to denote that it is still being done. It's still necessary although a sentence may seem valid without it.

Having said that, I'd like to think that the validity in a PPC without duration is by custom rather than formal rule. Besides, when people would understand that there is a duration in an activity described by certain forms of PPC as you've said, then the actual version of the sentence will require statement of duration. PPC without duration is correct, but PPC with duration is "more correct" (is there such a thing? amazed: hammer: )

However, in daily usage, honestly, like other people, I tend to always give in to such "valid by custom" justification Peace:
nottoohandsome - 19/06/2010 01:42 AM
#72

Quote:
Original Posted By vidavacia

2. I was thinking what he said is still related, this means you just talk about the background/setting, not the main event. and when you say "i was thinking", it's not related to the present time.
3. I have been thinking what he said is still related, this means that you're still in the process of thinking, and not yet come to a conclusion.

ahhhh \), this is a little bit answering my doubt so far.. I just realized, after reading your post, that i was comparing 2 different events at that moment, but the second event actually happened at the moment i made that sentence, so I failed to notice it. That explains why i chose "I was thinking" instead of "I have been thinking". I just didn't feel right using the latter at that time.

Quote:
imparfait in french is more or less like past continuous tense. it doesn't have any connection to the present.
example: quand j'etais étudiante,.. (when i was a student,..)
as you can see, the above example is only half of the sentence. so if you want to say: I was thinking that what he said is related,..
there has to be another clause (usually in past simple) to make the sentence complete.

mostly yes, but you can also use imparfait for describing an ongoing action with no specified completion. At that moment, my act of thinking was not yet completed. Isn't that why it's called imperfect tense? \)

and agree with Orthanc:
Quote:
I'd like to think that the validity in a PPC without duration is by custom rather than formal rule. Besides, when people would understand that there is a duration in an activity described by certain forms of PPC as you've said, then the actual version of the sentence will require statement of duration. PPC without duration is correct, but PPC with duration is "more correct"


thanks guys, I like discussing this with you all... \)
xanaxtaxi - 19/06/2010 07:19 AM
#73

which one is correct:
- for god's sake?
- for god sakes?

i personally think it's the first one, but i often hear people use the second one in movies.
Orthanc - 19/06/2010 07:47 AM
#74

Quote:
Original Posted By xanaxtaxi
which one is correct:
- for god's sake?
- for god sakes?

i personally think it's the first one, but i often hear people use the second one in movies.


it's the first one. you can even find it inside wikipedia D
nottoohandsome - 19/06/2010 08:27 AM
#75

or you can say it in plural form:
for god's sakes... \)
vidavacia - 19/06/2010 11:25 PM
#76

Quote:
Original Posted By Orthanc
IMO, the purpose of using a duration/period reference in a PPC is none other than to define the process emphasized in the sentence itself and to denote that it is still being done. It's still necessary although a sentence may seem valid without it.


how about these sentences?
- it's been raining (the rain has stopped, but everything's wet)
- she's been crying (she's not crying anymore, but her eyes are swollen)
- he's been running (he finished running, he's out of breath)

Quote:
Original Posted By nottoohandsome


mostly yes, but you can also use imparfait for describing an ongoing action with no specified completion. At that moment, my act of thinking was not yet completed. Isn't that why it's called imperfect tense? \)


i didn't say the clause using imparfait is complete, but you need the other clause to make the sentence complete. the first clause is an ongoing action with no specified completion, that's why i said it has the same function as past continuous.

but this is not a french thread, is it? D
Orthanc - 20/06/2010 09:22 AM
#77

Quote:
Original Posted By vidavacia
how about these sentences?
- it's been raining (the rain has stopped, but everything's wet)
- she's been crying (she's not crying anymore, but her eyes are swollen)
- he's been running (he finished running, he's out of breath)


when I said "period of reference" in my first explanation in this thread, it's not only limited to duration, but also words like "lately", "recently", "just now", "since....", "from....." and anything else which denotes time without referring directly to the progress of the action, and not just duration, can be applied for PPC.

and when you use the sentences above, no, the actions are not finished yet. If you're trying to say that the actions are finished, you should use PP.

so in the case of these sentences:

It's been raining. By the time someone said this to denote that the rain has stopped but everything's wet, that person believed that it was likely to rain again, and a reference period should at least exist to explain when it first happened. if he/she doesn't, then there's a fallacy there. Thus, he/she can either say "It has rained" or "It's been raining lately" (as if the rain poured continuously with certain stops, and by the time it stopped, it was likely to happen again.

He's been running. For this kind of usage, I'd prefer using "he has just ran", if it's a full stop. Else if we insist on using He's been running, I'd come to a logic that there was a certain duration to it that made the person out of breath, even without resorting to grammar, such as "He's been running for almost an hour" which is likely to be the actual form of "He's been running" here if referring to my statement that the sentence will require a reference of period.

I think I don't have to explain further for the "She has been crying" part.

Whenever someone uses PPC to explain that something has happened, then he/she is in fact implying that the action may happen again, even if he/she doesn't realize it. In conversations, people may not be reminded of a sentence's time-frame context in order to understand it. That's why I prefer to consider the validity of such usage is by custom. It's not wrong and may be appropriate, but it lacks what is required to make it fit into the actual grammatical rule.

CMIIW.
atmania - 20/06/2010 01:21 PM
#78

it's been raining
She's been crying
He's been running

I just found more grammar from my english text book, new edition market leader by david cotton
It says
Changes which have not reached their end-point are expressed uising -ing
for ex : Profits are falling. Unemployment has been rising.

If the change is complete we use a perfect tense.
For ex: the government has privatised the rail network.
Sales have increased and that has meant higher profits.

Hope it helpsAll about Grammar & Tenses - The correct way to say/use .... ask it here !!
Orthanc - 20/06/2010 03:05 PM
#79

Quote:
Original Posted By atmania
it's been raining
She's been crying
He's been running

I just found more grammar from my english text book, new edition market leader by david cotton
It says
Changes which have not reached their end-point are expressed using -ing
for ex : Profits are falling. Unemployment has been rising.


exactly, gan. that's why it's a "continuous". If we use the PPC (Present Perfect Continuous) to say that something has ended, it's not really the end of the action in the time-frame of the tense itself.
passthrough - 20/06/2010 03:30 PM
#80

Please, let me to ask you, kaskuser..

which one is right from this two sentences below:

1. In a movie, music in the background helps determine your mood. or
2. In a movie, music in the background helps determining your mood.

I've heard that the word "help" must be followed by to infinitive or bare infinitive. but, i'm not so sure..Thank for your attention..
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